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TOPIC: Probable new Tennessee digging law

Re:Probable new Tennessee digging law 5 years 2 months ago #19855

WOW I'll have to get one of yall to help represent me as I'm not highly educated (not a Dummy either) you know what I mean I hope. Va is also looking to move the start of season which is good for the honest guy. But the poachers are cutting their own throats and mine which ticks me off! Next season there are a few ol boys that best keep their seng hid well because IF I can get them checked out I will!

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Re:Probable new Tennessee digging law 5 years 2 months ago #19861

BCastle wrote:

I don't think the issue was with your words at all Frank. I think its a basic concept issue that most people have trouble understanding. I just had this discussion with someone else over lunch a few hours ago, actually. The realm of administration is often misunderstood by people because their understanding of the concept is based on administrators who were either lacking or unskilled to some degree. Unfortunately, this is often coupled with a lack of understanding of the subject at hand, and is thus mis-diagnosed as administrators must understand the subject to be effective.

You are absolutely correct that the administrators must be open minded for a compromise to take place...but at the same time, so must those of us on the other side.

Look at it this way... The administrators of the Federal powers that be know little about ginseng. So they reasarch and come up with a position based on that research. The rub is, there are vast differences in what we know about ginseng now, that we didn't know a few years ago. I myself have reversed my recommendations based on more recent information and experimentation. We need to know what their goals are, and understand what they are doing to try to secure those goals. If their mission is to prevent the loss of numbers of ginseng plants in the national forest system, I would expect all digging there to be banned immediately. However, if their primary goal is to stop the loss of wild plants AND to increase the numbers of wild plants, then I would anticipate their being more receptive to the idea of allowing or otherwise supporting the planting of wild simulated patches in the forests.

Does that make sense?


I must say that I have read that first paragraph 20 times and am still not sure I got what you mean! That is the problem with forums as it is hard to get a point across in words and sometimes harder for those reading the words to understand the point. I really don't know why as a former Federal Government Employee and a Government Employee that we even use the word Administrator or administration at all! I beleve most government agencies, Federal and State with the exception of the of the Executive Office under the President, quit using these designations long ago. They have evolved to the use of Job Positions with the head of a section or program being the Supervisor thus the word \"Supervisor\" in some way attached to their job position designation and the underlings without. The designation of Administrative Assistant now usually refers to a Secretary for an entire Office and/or a Secretary for individual Supervisors when the are needed due to the job position, classification and duties of the Supervisors.

Thanks for agreeing on this point!

I agree with all of what you are saying here except for the last sentence which I have highlighted in red below with my answer to follow!
\"However, if their primary goal is to stop the loss of wild plants AND to increase the numbers of wild plants, then I would anticipate their being more receptive to the idea of allowing or otherwise supporting the planting of wild simulated patches in the forests.\"
I doubt you will find anyone around here or pretty much anywhere in the country where Ginseng is dug in National Forests to support the former \"receptive to the idea of allowing the planting of wild simulated patches in the forests.\"! Even with their consent, I would never use my' own funds to plant Ginseng plants and/or seeds in any section of National Forest Land knowing that some poacher or poachers will likely raid the section. Also, neither would I do so unless I was guaranteed this section for \"Life\" if I want it (sort of like a Lease but without the high costs), that they patrol this section on foot and vehicles quite a few times a day, every day from March until November and install at least some sort of surveillance system to help catch trespassers and poachers when they are not patrolling.
You will have a better chance of getting some folks to support the latter \"receptive to the idea of supporting the planting of wild simulated patches in the forests.\"! However, this would likely only ever happen, if the NF Division pays part or all of the costs of the seeds and/or (if used) rootlets, increase Law Enforcement patrols on foot and in vehicles and install some sort of surveillance and monitoring systems. And yes, we, the diggers would provide the labor of planting or re-planting as well as our time and gas.

Last paragraph covered above!


Frank

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Re:Probable new Tennessee digging law 5 years 2 months ago #19862

rickyc wrote:

WOW I'll have to get one of yall to help represent me as I'm not highly educated (not a Dummy either) you know what I mean I hope. Va is also looking to move the start of season which is good for the honest guy. But the poachers are cutting their own throats and mine which ticks me off! Next season there are a few ol boys that best keep their seng hid well because IF I can get them checked out I will!


rickyc,

Advice on the forums is free! However, if you want to pay me even though I am not a Lawyer, I will start with $100 per hour plus expenses after a $500 Retainer Fee is paid. LOL!!! As always, I will accept Ginseng in Barter!B)


Frank

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Re:Probable new Tennessee digging law 5 years 2 months ago #19876

Frank,

Administration is a lot more than simple supervision or following of orders and directives. It is all of that and much more including the creation of organizational goals, as well as the policies and directives and their enforcement. Think of administration as a field like medicine (for a doctor) or law (for lawyers) etc. When I talk about administration, I am completely ignoring a person's title or lack thereof. You can be an administrator (and maybe a very good one) on a small scale supervisory level, or be a very high ranking individual in a mega corporation and not understand administration at all.

The field of administration is growing and evolving still. We have all had the boss that likes to yell and demean you in front of others, even if the problem was his or her doing. That person is an old school heroism supervisor. They are doomed to failure. There is no place for that person in the modern field of administration.

But, in law enforcement (and I suspect most governmental organizations), leadership is most often chosen by attrition. If you are still there long enough for those senior in rank to retire or seek employment elsewhere, you eventually get to be in charge regardless of your abilities and skills or lack thereof.

This sets up the situation I referred to in the first part of my prior post. When you have someone who is unskilled and essentially an ineffective administrator coming into the job because they are the most senior employee, they seldom change their style of doing things. In fact, at that point, they often figure they will do things their way and if someone doesn't like it that's just tough because they are the person who is making the rules.

This lends us to couple bad administration with incompetence of the subject in our minds. Therefore, we come to believe that if someone doesn't know and understand the thing they are responsible to administer, they will not be able to effectively do their job.

This just isn't true. Bad administrators can be unknowledgeable, but so can good administrators. You have to see them as two separate things.

My suggestion is that the folks at the F&WS are competent administrators. However, they appear to have a lower level of knowledge about ginseng than we do. This does not mean they cannot effectively create and administer the ginseng program according to the goals set forth in part by Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). Instead, it means that they at times must be educated to the facts of the issues at hand. Understand, that they may not know anything about ginseng diggers except what they see and hear in reports and news releases of guys getting caught poaching ginseng from someplace. Arguably, as with any other area of endeavor, the bad stuff is what makes the news and gets attention. So, they may have a somewhat negative bias against diggers from the start.

The first example might be that you propose to personally finance a wild sim patch in a national forest as long as you can have a lifetime lease and benefit from extra patrols and surveillance at agency cost, all for the price of $500.

A) First, they will see this as a costly deal to them. It is completely inequitable as they are spending MUCH more on protecting something that is arguably only going to benefit you personally and not the citizenry as a whole. Secondly, that assessment being made, it looks from their perspective that you are a selfish SOB looking to get great benefit at taxpayer and agency expense.

A second example might be that you organize a group and represent yourselves professionally to the organization. You come up with a proposal which might include details which is beneficial to the organization. Maybe research on wild sim vs true wild patches. Maybe your organization will provide for the extra patrol not only for your plantings, but for the wild patches there too at your cost (volunteer). In exchange, you may wish for the agency to fund part of the price of the seed or surveillance equipment.

B ) In this case, the agency sees that you are more trying to assist them in their goal of learning more about wild sim vs wild ginseng on forest land. You are willing to help them more than demand things from them. They still might not approve your request, but at least this request doesn’t look as self-centered as the one above.
This would leave you in a better position to negotiate things with this agency, because you have approached them respectfully, reasonably, and professionally. You offer to provide resources for research and maybe some volunteer labor from your organization, and you might find yourself in the loop of helping a good administrator who is essentially unknowledgeable about ginseng, understand what we do better than he or she does currently. This takes time, but the agencies policies may change as a result of partnerships such as this.

Everyone expects and braces for the frontal attack. Never negotiate from that position. Instead, go around and go out of your way to prove that you are not an attacker from which they must defend. Prove yourself and your group to be respectable, responsible, and symbiotic to the organization and you will get much better results I think.

Remember, they are making the rules. You need them to listen to you for those rules to change. They do not have to listen to you if they don't want to. Therefore, suggesting they are incompetent isn't in your best interest.

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Re:Probable new Tennessee digging law 5 years 2 months ago #19891

huntsman53 wrote:

rickyc wrote:

WOW I'll have to get one of yall to help represent me as I'm not highly educated (not a Dummy either) you know what I mean I hope. Va is also looking to move the start of season which is good for the honest guy. But the poachers are cutting their own throats and mine which ticks me off! Next season there are a few ol boys that best keep their seng hid well because IF I can get them checked out I will!


rickyc,

Advice on the forums is free! However, if you want to pay me even though I am not a Lawyer, I will start with $100 per hour plus expenses after a $500 Retainer Fee is paid. LOL!!! As always, I will accept Ginseng in Barter!B)


Frank


Lol :P

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Re:Probable new Tennessee digging law 5 years 2 months ago #19894

yea they made us wate till sep 1 to start diggin.and heard a rumer that ky state was going close .but they didnt.and i like that they spraid the sing in the parks to.that will help out some but u have some that will dig it as soon as it pops up.ug that makes me mad if they keep doing it they will wipe it out in scott county tn.so i hope the prices will be good this year.mack byrd is paying 400 a pound dry and if u have more than a pound he said he would give me 500 a pound so i thank it will go up this year better than last.:kiss:

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Re:Probable new Tennessee digging law 5 years 2 months ago #19917

Jasonjeffers wrote:

???? ???? is paying 400 a pound dry and if u have more than a pound he said he would give me 500 a pound so I thank it will go up this year better than last.:kiss:


Look for a more fair Buyer close by that is in Tennessee or from Kentucky who is licensed to buy Tennessee Ginseng. I will not sell to a Buyer that pays less for quality Ginseng just because you have a pound or less! Ginseng is a commodity just like Gold, Silver, Corn and many other bought, sold and traded items. When a price per pound is set, Ginseng or other commodities are no less valuable when sold in smaller quantities than when sold in greater quantities. Sixteen ounces of Ginseng still equals a pound dry weight and 12 ounces of Gold still equals a pound Troy weight! Why should it matter that you only have 10 ounces or a pound of Ginseng compared to the next guy that has 5 pounds? It shouldn't! If quality Ginseng is fetching $500 a pound then each ounce should fetch $31.25 respectively ($31.25 x 16 = $500)! Sure, most Ginseng Buyers/Dealers may put individual purchases in separate containers for sorting but after sorting, they place similar sized and qualities of Ginseng in one or more larger containers together, depending upon how much they purchase before reselling. So, 16 ounces equals one pound, 10 x one pound equals 10 pounds and 100 x one pound equals 100 pounds, right??!! I once had a Ginseng Buyer (from a different area) who snuck into another Ginseng Buyer's (Red's) buying spot because the latter (Red) was currently at the hospital with his dying wife, that was paying less for any Ginseng and tried to pay less to the diggers that had one pound or less of Ginseng to sell. When he told me that he was paying $240 a pound for dry Ginseng quantites over a pound and based on $200 a pound for quantities of a pound or less:( , I told him that I would flush it down the toliet or burn my' Ginseng before I would sell it to him:angry: .


Frank

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Re:Probable new Tennessee digging law 5 years 2 months ago #19922

BCastle wrote:

Frank,

Administration is a lot more than simple supervision or following of orders and directives. It is all of that and much more including the creation of organizational goals, as well as the policies and directives and their enforcement. Think of administration as a field like medicine (for a doctor) or law (for lawyers) etc. When I talk about administration, I am completely ignoring a person's title or lack thereof. You can be an administrator (and maybe a very good one) on a small scale supervisory level, or be a very high ranking individual in a mega corporation and not understand administration at all.

The field of administration is growing and evolving still. We have all had the boss that likes to yell and demean you in front of others, even if the problem was his or her doing. That person is an old school heroism supervisor. They are doomed to failure. There is no place for that person in the modern field of administration.

But, in law enforcement (and I suspect most governmental organizations), leadership is most often chosen by attrition. If you are still there long enough for those senior in rank to retire or seek employment elsewhere, you eventually get to be in charge regardless of your abilities and skills or lack thereof.

This sets up the situation I referred to in the first part of my prior post. When you have someone who is unskilled and essentially an ineffective administrator coming into the job because they are the most senior employee, they seldom change their style of doing things. In fact, at that point, they often figure they will do things their way and if someone doesn't like it that's just tough because they are the person who is making the rules.

This lends us to couple bad administration with incompetence of the subject in our minds. Therefore, we come to believe that if someone doesn't know and understand the thing they are responsible to administer, they will not be able to effectively do their job.

This just isn't true. Bad administrators can be unknowledgeable, but so can good administrators. You have to see them as two separate things.

My suggestion is that the folks at the F&WS are competent administrators. However, they appear to have a lower level of knowledge about ginseng than we do. This does not mean they cannot effectively create and administer the ginseng program according to the goals set forth in part by Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). Instead, it means that they at times must be educated to the facts of the issues at hand. Understand, that they may not know anything about ginseng diggers except what they see and hear in reports and news releases of guys getting caught poaching ginseng from someplace. Arguably, as with any other area of endeavor, the bad stuff is what makes the news and gets attention. So, they may have a somewhat negative bias against diggers from the start.

The first example might be that you propose to personally finance a wild sim patch in a national forest as long as you can have a lifetime lease and benefit from extra patrols and surveillance at agency cost, all for the price of $500.

A) First, they will see this as a costly deal to them. It is completely inequitable as they are spending MUCH more on protecting something that is arguably only going to benefit you personally and not the citizenry as a whole. Secondly, that assessment being made, it looks from their perspective that you are a selfish SOB looking to get great benefit at taxpayer and agency expense.

A second example might be that you organize a group and represent yourselves professionally to the organization. You come up with a proposal which might include details which is beneficial to the organization. Maybe research on wild sim vs true wild patches. Maybe your organization will provide for the extra patrol not only for your plantings, but for the wild patches there too at your cost (volunteer). In exchange, you may wish for the agency to fund part of the price of the seed or surveillance equipment.

B ) In this case, the agency sees that you are more trying to assist them in their goal of learning more about wild sim vs wild ginseng on forest land. You are willing to help them more than demand things from them. They still might not approve your request, but at least this request doesn’t look as self-centered as the one above.
This would leave you in a better position to negotiate things with this agency, because you have approached them respectfully, reasonably, and professionally. You offer to provide resources for research and maybe some volunteer labor from your organization, and you might find yourself in the loop of helping a good administrator who is essentially unknowledgeable about ginseng, understand what we do better than he or she does currently. This takes time, but the agencies policies may change as a result of partnerships such as this.

Everyone expects and braces for the frontal attack. Never negotiate from that position. Instead, go around and go out of your way to prove that you are not an attacker from which they must defend. Prove yourself and your group to be respectable, responsible, and symbiotic to the organization and you will get much better results I think.

Remember, they are making the rules. You need them to listen to you for those rules to change. They do not have to listen to you if they don't want to. Therefore, suggesting they are incompetent isn't in your best interest.



I will only give a response to two items that you bring up and leave the rest alone as I believe that we have beat the dead horse per see too long. I really don't see the NF Division giving in or even compromising, no matter what tactic or approach you might use. In my experience, they are one of the Agencies nationwide just like an Agency here in East Tennessee that will very seldom compromise and always want it their way or you can take the road. I will say in defense of them, that it is not always the agency who is the problem, it is often the folks that work at the Regional/District offices and the region from where they come!

1. It has all too often been my experience, that some Administrators are only good at three things. That they are only good at shining the chair bottom (seat) with their' butts, good at delegating and good at collecting a paycheck.

2. I have only had one boss yell at me in front of my co-workers and peers! When this happened, I immediately called him down and to meet me outside, where I set him straight. No fist-a-cuffs, I just put him in his place and reminded him of the rules that Bosses and Supervisors must follow. I have supervised many people and many programs in my 59 years on this earth and although I am fairly mild mannered, I will not take crap off of anyone nor will I stand for being wronged! If a Boss or Supervisor has something to say negatively to a subordinate, then it is to be done in private, never in front of the subordinates co-workers and peers and especially not in front of the public or customers. Any Boss or Supervisor that does otherwise regularly, should be fired or at the least, again made a subordinate.


Frank

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Re:Probable new Tennessee digging law 5 years 2 months ago #20093

BCastle,

First off, I want to apologize if I offended you and any others here on the forum! Out of frustration and in my zeal to get my point across, it never dawned on me that you and some others here might be or might not be an Administrator. I meant no malice to you or anyone here! I was only expressing my' feelings and frustrations from many years of experience while working for the Federal Government!

Also, I want to apologize for being critical of the National Forestry Division folks! I know that many of them are only trying to do their job and get home to their families at the end of the day. Again, I meant no malice to them or anyone here! I was only expressing my' feelings from many years of experience and frustration while working for the Federal Government and being hindered in implementing many programs that I was tasked with due to interference and/or roadblocks from them as well as several other Federal Government Agencies!

I hope that you and anyone else here that may have been offended by my' posts and comments, will accept my apology and that we can work together in saving Wild Ginseng!


Sincerely,

Frank E. Ferrell

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Re:Probable new Tennessee digging law 5 years 2 months ago #20096

Hey Frank,

I wasn't the least bit offended by anytyhing you've said.

I guess sometimes I try to go into more detail than some people would like when I try to explain processes or concepts.

Its all good.

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